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About This Episode

At BELAY, our clients struggle with “finding the right people.” Being unable to find the right team member is one of the most common challenges business leaders have. Joining us in this episode is William Vanderbloemen, one of the best people to help because he knows how to get it right. 


As the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, William and his team specialize in helping Christian organizations like churches, nonprofits, schools, and values-based businesses find executives to lead them. He will give us a peek into how top organizations promote their positions in a way that attracts top talent.


Your One Next Step

Go visit, a unique resource provided by The Vanderbloemen Search Group,  to find out how healthy your team culture is today.  It takes just 10 mins and provides a host of information and additional tips on how to improve your culture. So your next hire can be the best yet!


Learn More


In each episode, we highlight one next step for you and provide an activation or delegation guide to help you immediately take action, start applying what you learn, and get your team to help you.

1. Don’t hire people like you.

 This is a common mistake business owners and leaders make, and one we made at BELAY many times early on. There’s nothing wrong with referrals, but you have to be cautious because you’ll end up with entire teams of clones. So whatever the leader needs to improve in, the team is probably weak in that same area. Encourage leaders to think intentionally and hire people not like them to fill those gaps, using communication and personality tests to help them find the additional type of people they need on the team.

2. Job descriptions are important, but they’re not everything.

It’s not about words on a piece of paper but identifying what the true need is, why you’re hiring for the role, and putting some thoughtful intent into what winning looks like for this job. In addition to the job description, make sure you have a Key Results Area (KRA) that helps each team member know what is expected of them.

3. In this Covid era of hiring, agility is incredibly important.

You might consider putting “other duties as necessary” at the top of every job description (kidding, sort of). The point is that everyone has to have the ability to quickly pivot. What works today might not work next year. And what works next year most likely won’t work 5 years from now. The older your business, the more difficult this is – as a 2-year-old business is naturally more “flexible” than one that’s been around for decades. Be intentional about hiring for agility, and you’ll make it a key factor in your organization.

What do you believe your strengths are when it comes to hiring? How could you improve?
Name a good hire you’ve made. Why was it such a good fit? Now, without naming names, talk about a bad hire you made and why it didn’t work.
The Covid world has affected almost everyone in the workplace. In what ways has it made your company “pivot?” How will that change in direction affect your hiring in the near future?
William, Lisa and Tricia talked a lot about job descriptions – why they’re valuable and why they also aren’t the end-all-be-all. What type of value does your company put in job descriptions, and do you feel like those expectations are clearly communicated to team members? Why or why not?

The most expensive hire you will ever make is hiring the wrong person.

William Vanderbloemen

People often hire too quickly and fire too slowly.

William Vanderbloemen

People join a company for a cause, but leave because of a manager’s failure to communicate expectations.

William Vanderbloemen

Frame the hiring needs of your organization around agility.

William Vanderbloemen

(03:04) William introduces himself, talks about his background as a pastor, and discusses his organization, The Vanderbloemen Search Group.

(05:59) What do leaders do wrong when trying to find the right people?

(12:13) What role does the job description have in hiring the right people?

(12:34) Every job description in the Covid world should lead with “other duties as necessary.” In other words, can you pivot?

(15:00) People join a company because of a cause. They leave because of their manager. 

(18:12) Two-year old businesses can “stretch” better than 40-year old businesses. 

Agility in your business is vital.

(19:30) How do great organizations find great talent? And how do you know when to work with a search firm and when it isn’t necessary?

(22:56) You don’t have to be the expert in all the things. 

(25:30) William talks about his company’s resource, The Culture Tool, why they developed it, and how it can help your company. 

(28:00) Why it’s important to identify the real need for a position, why you’re hiring for that position, and put thoughtful intent into developing the job description.

(29:00) Don’t hire people like you. Rookie mistake! 

(30:33) Today’s next step: Visit to find out how healthy your team culture is today. It just takes 10 minutes and provides a host of information and additional tips on how to improve your culture so your next hire can be the best yet.

– Hiring someone that your buddy told you about. The top thing you want, if you’re selling something on Amazon, is that, would you refer this product to a friend?

– Yeah.

– Right.

– And I think in hiring that can really help, you know, if you know somebody because it’s who you know, but way too often, I leaned into that, because I was too lazy and afraid to do the hard work of seeing whether they really fit our organization.

– Welcome to One Next Step, the most practical business podcast in the world. Helping you get more done, grow your business, and lead your team with confidence, with tips and tools you didn’t get in business school. Here are your hosts, Tricia Sciortino and Lisa Zeeveld.

– Welcome to One Next Step. The practical business podcast that helps you run your business and make it stop running you, so you can enjoy your work and your life. I’m Tricia Sciortino, the CEO of Belay.

– And I’m Lisa Zeeveld, the COO of Belay. Together we’re the T&LZ team, we’ve known each other since 2005, and have worked together for almost a decade, growing a 100% remote business from startup to being recognized on the inc 5,000 fastest growing companies list for six years running.

– LZ and I have learned a lot along the way and have made some great friends and partners. For One Next Step, we are cashing in some favors, to bring you episodes filled with excellent content delivered by some talented people. And we may have a thing or two to add ourselves. The One Next Step, is here to help you on your leadership journey.

– Each week we release a new episode, answering your questions about running an organization. We will always highlight one next step for you to take immediate action and include an activation guide that reinforces what you’ve heard today.

– We’re so excited you’re with us today. In this episode, we’ll be talking about how to find the right people for your team. And we’ll be joined by William Vanderbloemen, the CEO and Founder of Vanderbloemen Search Group. He will give us a peek into how top organizations promote their positions in a way that attracts top talent.

– At Belay, our clients struggle with, “Finding the right people.” Being unable to find the right people, is one of the most common challenges business leaders have. So I’m happy we can have a candidate search guru like William, on this episode, to share best practices for finding top talent, as we fill positions on our team. Our guest today, William Vanderbloemen, is one of the best people to help, because he knows how to get it right. As the founder and CEO of Vanderbloemen Search Group, William and his team specialize, in helping Christian organizations like churches, nonprofits, schools, and values-based businesses, find executives to lead them.

– He’s also the author of three amazing books, including his most recent book, “Culture Wins: The Roadmap to an Irresistible Workplace”. Which you can find in the show notes right now at Now enjoy our interview with William Vanderbloemen.

– Welcome William, thanks for joining us today on the podcast.

– Thanks so much, Tricia. It’s always good to be with you all.

– Yes. Before we get started, please tell us a little bit about yourself and your organization. We know you guys are up to great things and know our audience is going to love this conversation today, but we’d love you to just kind of introduce yourself.

– It’s a dangerous thing to give, to give a recovering preacher and open mic is bad idea.

– Yeah.

– I was a pastor for a long time in a previous life, and while I was a pastor, staffing was incredibly clunky. Then I went into oil and gas world for a little while, just a brief time and saw the company that I worked for that was a fortune 200 company, go through a succession in about 90 days.

– Wow.

– And they did it well and it worked, and like, what in the world? And like in hindsight, I mean, I love running a good business, but at the end of the day, I love the church more. And so I’m like, why in the world, does the bride not have the same solution the business world has? So I started out, I remember I came home from my very well-paid job, Adrian and I had just gotten married, we’d just blended our families, so we had six kids a brand new house and I said, “baby, I think I’m supposed to quit my job and start a new staffing solution for churches”.

– Wow.

– And she looked at me and she said, “that’s because churches love new ideas right?” Did her face look like that when she said it?.

– Yes, yes. She is so smart, she has bad taste in men, but she’s a smart lady, other than that. And she should have said, “I love you go back to work”, because she, you know, I’m the visionary and she’s the realists and all that. But she said, well, “why don’t we give it a try?” So and kicker, it was the fall of 2008, which was a brilliant time to quit your job and start, yeah. So since then, fast forward, 12 years, we’ve done 2000 staffing assignments and we’ve branched out from just churches to really any business or organization that would identify itself with the values of Christianity. So like you guys under a Mike Hyatt fans, like anybody that would dial in with Mike or the Chick-fil-As of the world or hobby lobby or a church or a nonprofit or a Christian school, and it’s been really cool to see the business grow and expand. We’re now really anything other than just part-time jobs. If you need help finding them, we do that, and we get to meet more interesting people and it’s been a fun, wild ride. Yeah.

– That’s awesome.

– Awesome.

– Gosh, I never knew that story. That is a great story William. And God bless Adrian.

– Yeah, no kidding. Put her on the player list.

– Yes. so, okay, 12 years later. So you’ve learned a thing or two and you’ve probably seen a or two. So what could you say about what do leaders do wrong? Why can’t leaders find great talent and the right people?

– You know, I forget which insurance company it is right now, but I’m so taken with their ad campaign where they say, “we know a thing or two, because we’ve seen a thing or two”, and I’m starting to feel a little bit like that. Learning every day, that I’ve and I think maybe I’m just identifying with my own shortcomings in hiring, but I know where I screwed up as a young leader was, I hired people that were like me, because I like me, you know? I get along pretty well with me, and so, you know, why not hire more of me since I like me. I think that that’s one big mistake leaders make. I think another mistake that I made that I see leaders make all the time is when I was a young senior pastor, I was 31 and senior pastor of the oldest church in Houston Texas, where Sam Houston went to church and you know, 5,000 adults and a couple thousand kids in a school and the whole thing. And I thought, well, I’m going to go hire an all-star staff, and I looked for the most competent people on the planet and I hired the highest talent I could find. because I thought that’s going to do it. And then I realized why nobody wants to coach the Olympic basketball team. Because it’s all talent, but everybody’s like, “give me the ball, give the ball, give me the ball”.

– Yes.

– And there’s no chemistry.

– Yeah.

– So, I think I have seen in my own flaws, some of the same things played out in really smart leaders that is, hiring people like themselves, hiring people just because they’re talented, without measuring whether they’re a cultural fit or whether they have the agility needed. Like if you’re starting a business and you’re like, do you know how many different things I can do with one roll of duct tape and a box of paper clips? Like if that’s you, not everybody works well in that, and they might be super talented. So measuring for what you really need and not just looking for the super talent or the superstar. And then finally, I would say second to last would be, hiring someone that your buddy told you about.

– Yeah

– Mmh-mm

– Now, like the top thing you want, if you’re selling something on Amazon, is that, would you refer this product to a friend? Like that’s the thing, right? Your net promoter score or whatever you want to call it. And I think in hiring that can really help, you know, if you know somebody cause it’s who, you know, but way too often, I leaned into that, because I was too lazy and afraid to do the hard work of seeing whether they really fit our organization. So I just went with the well they, you know, Sutton recommended him, Bryan and Shannon said I should hire him, so I’m just going to do it. There’s great value in that, that helps because, Bryan and Shannon know me and we started our things about the same time. So I take friend referrals as a valuable tool, but not the green light anymore. And then finally, I would say the biggest mistake for 12 years, I’ve said this, I’d say it more now than ever, is people hire too quickly and they fire too slowly.

– Yes.

– And sometimes you wait too long to get going with hiring, I’ve done that, I’m backed in a corner. And when I was a pastor, oh no, it’s fall, and I don’t have a student pastor and what am I going to do? And the parents are going to kill me, I need to hire somebody right now, who do I? I’ll call my buddy, Bryan, “who should I hire?” and then I’ve got a problem. You know? The most expensive hire you will ever make is, hiring the wrong person.

– Agreed. I’d rather you, if you’re a business owner already, go without and figure it out until you find the right person and rather than rushing into it. And the same is true with firing. But I know am not talking about that today, maybe another podcast.

– Another episode, for sure. We want to let you know that one next step is brought to you by Belay Virtual Assistance. As a busy leader, there are a lot of things on your plate, whether it’s managing emails, staying on top of projects, or creating important documents, there are so many details required to run a successful organization. But those details come at a heavy cost, your time. So here’s a quick litmus test to determine if you need more time. Are you feeling like you can’t take a vacation? Are you missing vital information critical for growing your business? How many Lord, how many business opportunities do you miss because of your chaos? Stress and frustration, don’t have to be the norm anymore. No, you shouldn’t have to do everything. And well, now you don’t have to. At Belay, we connect you with an experienced virtual assistant to help you get the most valuable asset in business, more time, to focus on what matters the most. Here at Belay, a virtual assistant can help you gather industry data and research, manage your inbox, book, travel, perhaps coordinate projects, manage your schedule, and even organize content, and so much more. Whether you’re a church, nonprofit or business, we have the right people to help you. So talk to our team and stop spending countless hours every week on tasks that someone else should be doing for you for. For more information, visit

– And that’s one of the things that I actually learned from Chick-fil-A, I spent some time with them when Belay was just getting launched, and I said, “gosh, but we need all these positions “and we’re hiring them and we need them now,” and they said, “no, but slow down, slow down.” And I said, “but my team is hurting.” And they said, “yes, but you need to train your team, that waiting longer for the right person, is going to hurt a lot less, than rushing that hire and bringing the wrong person on there”. So I love that, that you said that.

– That’s so good.

– Yeah.

– That’s so good. They’re smart.

– They know a thing or two about hiring the right people. I hear their churn is pretty low over there. So what role does the job description play, in hiring the right people?

– It depends on the job.

– Mmh-mm, okay.

– Mmh-mm

– Especially in this COVID world, I’m tempted to say job descriptions don’t matter a whole lot, because the world might shift and change in one second and now the job changed.

– Right?

– And like, I think every job description in a COVID world ought to have the very first requirement of the job, is other duties as necessary.

– Can you pivot?

– Be ready.

– How does pivot sound to you?

– Right, right.

– Can we turn pivot into an adjective? Pivottable, be a character trait?

– Agility.

– Yes, yes.

– Agility, and we can talk about that later if you want, but we actually have been interviewing for agility, for a long time, I think it’s more needed than ever. Now, it’s real, it’s simplistic and fun to make generalizations because you can laugh, but the reality is competencies still matter. Like you can say, well, I don’t want somebody who’s not competent if they don’t fit my team, or if they’re a jerk or whatever. Hey, newsflash, I don’t care if my brain surgeon is a jerk. I really don’t. I just want him to be a really good brain surgeon, right?

– Sure.

– Yeah.

– Or, maybe some of your listeners could relate to, I like agility, I want creativity, I want innovation. Well, if you’re hiring someone to direct your finance team or be your accountant, you do not want innovation.

– No creativity is allowed in the finance team.

– Listen, listen. I live in Houston and if you’re old enough to remember this, we tried creative accounting, we call it Enron, and it did not work.

– No, no.

– So, I’d love to just make the blanket generalization that, job descriptions don’t matter anymore. And that probably is the clickbait that would get a lot of views on a post or wherever, but the world’s just not that simple. I do think that the world that COVID has given us, is one where change has accelerated, it’s not just wearing masks, I mean like, the need for virtual assistance has accelerated, the need for solutions that are not based in an office, has accelerated. Doesn’t mean it’s the be all end all for every business, but if you can’t find people who can live with acceleration, you’re going to have a real problem. And you know, I think job descriptions matter a lot, but looking for someone who can respond to the world we’re in right now is also super important. Now, I totally dodged your question. Having said all of that, and put the ‘other duties as necessary’ at the top, which is actually kind of funny, and everybody will get it, you know, telling people, I think the number one reason people leave their jobs is because of their manager. Okay? So people join a company for a cause, they leave because of a manager. All right? Well, if you dig underneath that a little bit and say, well, why do people leave managers? Sometimes it’s because they’re a jerk, most of the time, it’s because they don’t know what their manager wants them to actually do. I don’t know what’s expected of me. That’s like the number one reason for discontent in the workplace. And so if you can’t figure out what you want them to do, when you’re writing the job description, it’s not going to get clearer when you’re meeting a new person.

– Sure.

– And I know you guys and our company have both been students of entreleadership and Dave Ramsey over the years, you know, having key, not key performance indicators like the corporate world would say KPIs, but key result areas. What do I want done? And I would think if you were looking at a virtual hire, that might even be, outcomes might be more important than anything else because the outcome might happen at four in the morning or at two in the afternoon or when the baby’s asleep or what. So I think if you want to drop back and start your job description with, why am I hiring this person? You know, if you’re hiring him because you want a buddy to do work with, that’s pretty dumb. But if you’re hiring him, because there’s some holes that need to be filled, okay, well, let’s identify what those are. And if they were filled, what would those results look like, and list those results areas. I would frame it all though, with agility, with other duties as necessary and knowing a little bit about who tends to listen to your podcasts, I think the more agility you can hire the better. Here’s a little story, I’m eating into our time. But years ago,

– We love it, keep going.

– When we were first starting out, I hit a round number birthday, okay? We won’t say which one, but it was one of the ones where it’s like, you know, William, if you’re going to keep, I call it running, those people would call it walking or jogging. But if you’re going to keep running, you’re going to have to stretch, because I was getting injured. Okay? And so our youngest was probably two at the time, and I remember I started stretching, and stretching was harder than the run. I couldn’t touch my toes, and you know, and I was home from the run one day and I was trying to stretch and trying to touch my toes, and I was probably sweating more then, than from the run itself, and Macy walks in at two years old, and looks at me, just pathetically, trying to touch the floor, and she comes up next to me, and she ties herself into like a human pretzel, but only a two year old can do and make sure that I see her, and then she stands up and looks at me and laughed at me, and left the room.

– No word said. And you know, the round number birthday was hard enough, but now I’ve been totally embarrassed. So, you know what, dawned on me though, every day I’m alive, I get less flexible. Two year olds can stretch better than 40 year olds. Two year old businesses can stretch better than 40 year old businesses. Every day your company is alive, it will naturally calcify. You can’t fight it. You can do stretching programs to try and slow it down, but when you’re hiring, you might ask yourself, are we in a total free fall, are we growing so fast we can’t, I mean, is it just agility everywhere, and we actually need some stability, or are we moving and shaking and things, I mean like, this is a big wave of growth coming and we’re going to have to have people who are agile. So that agility question is more than just, how are you dealing with COVID? It’s like, where are you in your life cycle as a business, and how do you staff for people that will fit that? And that doesn’t mean they’ll fit forever.

– Right.

– Chemistry is seasonal, for everybody.

– Well, and the lid.

– Yeah, yeah.

– Some people hit their capacity and they might have been with you for five years, but the next five is questionable.

– Oh, I’ve had very good employees that I hired when we were six people that left when we got to 40, and went to work for an organization of about six people. That’s what they like doing.

– Right, then that’s their sweet spot.

– Nothing wrong with that at all. I mean, don’t make the mistake of thinking, that you’re supposed to hire the team that’s with you for life. Because then you all get old and stiff together.

– Well, so speaking of talent, organizations who find great talent, where are they finding this talent? How do we access a better talent pool?

– Softball? You call Vanderbloemen.

– And, in addition or the same question, how do we know when to work with a firm like yours, and when maybe it’s unnecessary?

– Well, you know, I remember the first time I hired a staffing firm, it felt awkward, it felt like I was being negligent, it felt like I had done something wrong, because I couldn’t get the hire done on my own. You know what it felt like, it felt like the first day I went to counseling. Like, oh my gosh, why am I here? This is so embarrassing, I can’t believe I’m having to talk somebody about things, and you just kind of stare at the floor and it’s very natural to feel that way. It’s your company, chances are, if you’re listening this, you own your company. You’re like, nobody knows this company better than I do. True. Totally true. That doesn’t mean that you’re able on your own, not just to find names, I mean, there is this thing called LinkedIn, you can find names. So for me, the image I’ve used forever, we’re about two miles from the Houston medical center, which is arguably the best gathering of doctors in the world, and I’ve thought about staffing quite often, like an organ transplant. And part of what a staffing company or a search firm will do is find donor list, like here’s some potential, but if you talk to transplant docs, which I’ve done, and you say, so what really separates the good ones from the best? They’ll all tell you the same thing. It’s the tissue match. It’s one thing to find good donors, but truth you need a lung transplant. You can put a healthy long into a healthy body, if they don’t match, it’s a bad ending for everyone.

– Yeah.

– Rejection.

– Yeah. And some of that, you can do on your own because you know your company, but some of it, you really don’t have objectivity. You just don’t. I don’t about us. So I think it’s really interesting, people that hire us that are first-time clients, we ask them at the front end, we do a little survey. We say, “what are you expecting to get out of this?” And like right up at the top is, “introduce candidates to us that we never would have known before”. Okay, fine. So, and we do that because we have this amazing database that’s completely OCD. It’s actually probably CDO because that’s alphabetical, and so, our database is awesome, we can do that. When we get done with the search and we do a post search survey and we say, “what was the biggest value to you?” Almost every single time, people say, “the process, “the guidance, the objectivity”. And then they’ll say, “and you did bring us people, we wouldn’t have known before.” But it’s almost like you just don’t realize, how much of a burden that is to have to walk it alone. And if you’re a business with three or four people, my guess is you’ve probably only hired a dozen people in your life. Why not go to somebody that’s done a couple thousand repetitions and say, “yeah, learn anything in those couple thousand”, and I guess we’re back around to the part where I’m learning every day, but I do feel a little bit like sometimes we’re the experts because we know a thing or two, because we’ve seen a thing or two.

– Yes.

– Yeah.

– We are big believers in, you know, you don’t have to be the expert in all of the things. I mean, you work with vendors, and you hire other organizations and you partner with other people because they have an expertise you shouldn’t even claim to have.

– Absolutely.

– So if you’re marketing, for example, we’re a staffing agency and sometimes we need marketing support and we will pick the smartest marketing organization to partner with, because their job is to know marketing, and our job is to know staffing.

– Or the day that I had a real sudden need to have a new assistant, and I knew I wasn’t smart enough to figure that out so I bothered Brian who then bothered Tricia and pushed all those dominoes over that created havoc in the company, but not five hours later, I had a brand new assistant virtual, I said great. So, we’re believers in you guys.

– Five hours is the friends and family special.

– Yeah, let’s not put that out there. Let’s not put five hours out. I do have to say though, and our listeners know this, and that, when I first joined Belay, I was a virtual assistant myself and I had the privilege, I was assigned to a church in a suburb of Chicago. And they partnered with you and your organization to find a student pastor. And I do have to say the process, I was kind of the conduit and the quarterback, if you want to say between your staff and the church staff to help that go. And it was fascinating to watch because of how well orchestrated it was. So from my seat, I can say, even just as the executive assistant at the time, the process and the education that the materials that you provided, I think were priceless to that team because I could see how excited they were because they don’t do that all the time. They were great pastors, right? There was a great executive pastor I worked for, and it was a great senior pastor, but at the end of the day, they weren’t great at hiring. And I think that’s, what’s most important about partnering with somebody who does it all the time.

– I didn’t know that story, Lisa that’s super cool.

– Yeah, yeah.

– And man if they were happy then, like

– Right, imagine now.

– Well, I made the mistake of listening to some of my early sermons, not too long ago, oh my gosh. Why would anybody believe in Jesus?

– We’re our own worst critics.

– Yeah, yeah. yes exactly. Well, we do like to call ourselves, the most practical business podcast in the world. Okay, in the world. So as the most practical business podcast, we want to make sure that people, our listeners, are walking away today with something they can do immediately. So what would you say for somebody that’s kind of sitting here at the end of 2020, talk about pivoting and agility, we’ve had to do a lot of it, but now they know that there’s a new hire, what can they do outside of the duct tape and the paperclips?

– Well, how about a free resource? People who start businesses like those.

– We like free resource.

– We love it.

– Yeah, yeah. Everyone listening to us right? I would get a handle on how the culture of my team is, where we’re strong and where we’re not, and that will help you onboard your brand new hire, if you have one of those. It’ll help you assess what you need to work on before you hire, if you need that. And, it’s kind off like going to a physical, that’s like, “Ooh, I didn’t want to know all that about myself.” But so we studied you guys and about 150 other companies that are one of these ‘best places to work’ things. I think both our companies have actually won that with entrepreneur magazine. And after we won, we studied. ‘so what makes a good culture?’ Clearly, it’s not just office space, I mean, you guys have proven that,

– Right,

– And we built a kind of science-based tool. And if you go to the, the, there’s a totally free assessment of how you’re doing. We found eight key areas that healthy organizations excel in. And you’re going to be good at som and not good at others, and I’d be less than transparent, if I didn’t say, if you get super geeked out on this and you want to go deep on the data, there is a paid version that is a couple hundred dollars or something. But you don’t need to do that, you can just start with this basic free thing, and I think it would give you a tangible next step to improving your current team and preparing for the next hire.

– Oh, that’s good, that’s great. Well, William, this has been a joy. Thank you so much for joining us today and really helping our listeners understand how to hire the right people, what are some key tools they can do, and of course the free resource is amazing as well. So thank you so much.

– Thanks Lisa, thanks Tricia. Love you guys, and all that you’re doing.

– Well. Another great interview with another incredible guy, incredible leader, William. Wow, that was awesome. I mean, we just had a really good time with that conversation, didn’t we?

– Yes, he’s fun, so fun.

– Yeah.

– I learned a couple of things about William today on the episode so,

– Well, what was your takeaway?

– I love kind of how he teased about, you know, nevermind the job description. Obviously we need a job description, but, I know, but really at the end of the day, it’s not about words on a piece of paper. It’s about really identifying what the true need is, why you’re hiring the role and to really put some thoughtful intent into, how does this person know if they’re winning, is this piece of paper, this job description, actually a good key results area, kind of summary, of what this person will do for you and your organization. So I love kind of how we just talked about, let’s not get hung up on job descriptions and let’s pay more attention to actually, what is necessary needed, and what are the results you need from this person.

– Yeah, yeah, that’s good stuff.

– Yeah. I think too, you know, what we’ve seen here, is to make sure you have a job description and a key results area, you know, not to try to make one, the other one. You know, we kind of made that mistake in the early days, is trying to use the KRA as the job description. And that would be, you know, one of the things I would just talk about, is make sure there are two, and then I also thought it was great, how he mentioned, “don’t hire people like you”. And we at belay have made that mistake.

– Such a rookie thing.

– It is such a rookie thing.

– I did the same thing for you for years

– We did it for and years, and you know, we love our friends, we love referrals, still today, we love referrals, but you have to be really, really cautious. And we see that now with young leaders now that you and I are so much more mature,

– That’s a nice way of saying old.

– No, no, no. But we, we actually see that, that you’ll have entire teams of little clones of people. And so whatever area of improvement might be for that leader, you’re going to find it in the whole team. So if you have a leader who perhaps is not as direct or has a problem with courageous conversations, before long, you’re going to have an entire team of people who do just that. And so right now, what we’re doing is, we’re really encouraging our leaders to think outside the box and intentionally hire people that are not like them to fill those gaps and lots of personality tests and communication tests will help you figure out the additional type of people you need on your team. But I think that’s a really key takeaway from today, is do not hire people like you.

– Totally, totally.

– Yeah, all right. Well, it is time for the one next step. As the most practical business podcast, we want to make sure taking action, isn’t overwhelming to you. With each episode, we’re going to offer you, one next step to propel you and your business forward. Today’s next step is pretty easy, William already gave it away, and that is to visit That’s the culture tool, to find out how healthy your team culture is today. It just takes 10 minutes and it provides a host of information and additional tips on how to improve your culture so that your next hire can be the best yet.

– Absolutely. And to get today’s episode guide, text the phrase ‘one next step’ to three, one, nine, nine, six, or visit When you request today’s guide, you’re also going to receive a summary of today’s episode, which will include key quotes and takeaways and links to resources mentioned in the episode.

– Thank you for listening to this episode, We hope you enjoyed it and that you will join us next time for more practical tips and actionable tools to advance your business one step at a time.

– Until next time, own your journey. It’s your life and your business. It’s up to you to create the life and organization you want. So start by making today count.

– Thanks for listening to One Next Step. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts or follow us on Spotify. Then join us next time for more practical business tips and tools to help you get more done, grow your business and lead your team with confidence for more episodes, show notes and helpful resources, visit

Go visit, a unique resource provided by The Vanderbloemen Search Group,  to find out how healthy your team culture is today.  It takes just 10 mins and provides a host of information and additional tips on how to improve your culture. So your next hire can be the best yet!


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Thank you for listening to One Next Step.

We hope you’ll join us for next week’s episode with William Vanderbloemen, CEO and Founder of the Vanderbloemen Search Group. Finding the right people is one of the most common challenges business leaders have. William will be talking with Tricia and Lisa about how top organizations promote their positions in a way that attracts top talent.